Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

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Elminster
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:38 pm

Nothing works on Electron using ATI, so either my ATI is faulty or ATI doesnt work with pitube. Will wait for my newly painted AP5 once Dave.H sends them out.

Pi zero on Master (Basic4) shows 400Mhz combined average, that combo wins the prize until I get around to getting a Pi3.

That is my testing complete now until

a) I find another way to connect John K shifter to Pi
b) I get an AP5 for Electron to play with

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby dp11 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:05 am

Pi3 as it has a longer pipeline is slower for 6502.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby hoglet » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:40 am

Elminster wrote:Nothing works on Electron using ATI, so either my ATI is faulty or ATI doesnt work with pitube. Will wait for my newly painted AP5 once Dave.H sends them out.

What ROMs do you have present - can you post a photo of *ROMS and *HELP?

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:08 am

hoglet wrote:
Elminster wrote:Nothing works on Electron using ATI, so either my ATI is faulty or ATI doesnt work with pitube. Will wait for my newly painted AP5 once Dave.H sends them out.

What ROMs do you have present - can you post a photo of *ROMS and *HELP?


A fully loaded AP6. I need to tweak the order and roms: Want to swap some for sram. Off the top of head the only ROM in the Electron that is not on the need (with a fully pop sideways board) is the Jaffa mode 7 one. Would be easier just to test on my plus1 with no AP6.

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hoglet
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby hoglet » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:06 am

Elminster wrote:[
A fully loaded AP6. I need to tweak the order and roms: Want to swap some for sram. Off the top of head the only ROM in the Electron that is not on the need (with a fully pop sideways board) is the Jaffa mode 7 one. Would be easier just to test on my plus1 with no AP6.

Can you be more specific about the ROMs.

I'm just trying to check that you have one that contains the tube host code.

For example, do you have the RetroHardware +1 Support ROM (v1.30)?

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:10 am

The AP6 on-board ROM (Plus 1 ROM) has the Tube code built-in! Or have I not read the whole thread (trying to catch-up as our visitors our out for the day).

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:56 pm

Yep an AP6 with the built in tube code.

But I plan to Re-jig all the roms in the AP6 anyway, and need to reborn the basic sleuth one for the 'hoglet fixed' version. By which time Dave.H. might have sent out AP5s anyway....

Didn't the Electron ATI also have tube code built in as well?

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby hoglet » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:35 pm

In what way doesn't it work on the Elk + ATI?

Is it not recognised at all, or do you see the boot message and then get a hang?

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:41 pm

hoglet wrote:In what way doesn't it work on the Elk + ATI?

Is it not recognised at all, or do you see the boot message and then get a hang?


Just ignores it (but the pi's power up but not hooked up the serial cable). But I dont think the ATI is being recognised properly. But if Dave confirms Tube code in ATI board I will use unexpanded Electron+1. Not high on my list at the moment as the ATI will be going in the 'figurative dustbin' once I get AP5 anyway. Only testing for completeness. Will be ordering SRAM and reorganising ROM/RAM in AP6 in next couple of weeks. Could be oddiity with the ROMs.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby daveejhitchins » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:54 pm

Elminster wrote:But if Dave confirms Tube code in ATI board I will use unexpanded Electron+1.
You'd have to check inside! However, I could look at that for you . . . IIRC it's just 1 or 2 buffers and a PLD. I'm sure I have the PLD code.

Dave H :D
Last edited by daveejhitchins on Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:58 pm

These things never straight forward :)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby marcusjambler » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:10 am

Hi Everyone,
Adding to the list of copro enabled software.
The 3D development system by Glentop operates in Beebem with the 2nd processor enabled.
I'll give it a drive on a Pi over the weekend.

Marcus

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby BigEd » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:28 am

That sounds interesting! Here's the review of that, from Micro User May 86.
3D-Glentop-May-1986.png

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby marcusjambler » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:37 pm

The GlenTop 3D Development System does work with hardware and RPI co-pro :D

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:51 am

The Doc's say

'This core offers 1 megabyte of banked memory although very few programs know how to use it'

Has this been covered somewhere how to do this, or pointers on doing this? I dont remember seeing anything about writting programs to use !MB of banked memory. But interested in having a look to see if I can do somethign with it.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby BigEd » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:31 am

Hmm, indeed, maybe there isn't anything on GitHub about the bank selection registers. We do have this announcement from Dave, admittedly about the Matchbox, but the PiTube now has the same feature:

hoglet wrote:...It's been a while ... here's a update ...
6502 Co Pro has access to 1MB of external RAM using bank switching.

This is the cool new feature that we've been thinking about for a while.

The 6502 memory map is spilt into 8K pages via a set of paging eight registers at &FEE0-&FEE7:
- the register at &FEE0 controls the mapping of 0x0000-0x1FFF
- the register at &FEE1 controls the mapping of 0x2000-0x3FFF, etc
- page values of 0x00-0x07 are directed to fast internal block RAM (and this is the default).
- page values of 0x80-0xFF are directed to slower external static RAM.

To test this, there is now a variant of the Co Pro Conway Life implementation that uses this bank switched memory support much larger patterns. More on this later in the Conway Life Thread

It's now possible for someone to port Alan Cox's Fuzix to run on the 6502 Co Pro in the Beeb.


and this one-line comment in the code:
// - the bank select registers are accessed at 0xFEE0-0xFEE7


The example code we have is the huge version of Conway's Game of Life, as mentioned here with the specific code here.

Edit: for reference, the Matchbox wiki also has this:
Banked RAM in the 6502 models

There is 1MByte of external RAM available, if the Matchbox board is fully populated. That's half the physical memory, for technical reasons. The 6502 memory map is spilt into 8K pages using a set of eight paging registers at &FEE0-&FEE7:

the register at &FEE0 controls the mapping of 0x0000-0x1FFF
the register at &FEE1 controls the mapping of 0x2000-0x3FFF, etc
page values of 0x00-0x07 are directed to fast internal block RAM (and this is the default).
page values of 0x80-0xFF are directed to slower external static RAM.
Note that the I/O space in 6502 page &FE is always present. All other RAM space is paged, including page &FF with the vectors, page zero and the stack page, and including the OS in the top 4k. Page these out only with suitable preparation.
Last edited by BigEd on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:42 am

Okay thanks. I thought perhaps I had missed something. I will have a poke around and see if I can work it out.

Not in any particualr hurry. My code I was writing is about to run out of memory and rather than hack bits out, crunch it (makes it really hard to debug) I thought I would let it grow until it was feature complete and then start shrinking it .... well that was the thought in my head anyway.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby BigEd » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:43 am

It would be great to see another program make use of this feature!

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:49 am

If I end up getting it working I may end up with 2 versions. A <= 44k cut down version (shouldnt be an issue, most features are never used anyway, referring to BTELNET program) and a feature complete pitube pnly version.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby BigEd » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:52 am

Maybe you could break out a handful of features into an optional overlay? (I expect it's easier to use banked memory for data storage than to use it for code, but both are possible.)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:42 am

Most of the code is BASIC with a handful of ASM routines and some DATA statements.

For the cutdown version i could do a boot loader that put the ASM routines into memory and then chained the main code, move the DATA to files, that reduces the main code. But makes it a bit more messy. With more memory I may not have to do that. But first I need to get my head around how it works, what can be done with BASIC, what can be done with ASM etc. I still have about 4k left and crunching gets me 8k back(although as mentioned debugging becomes a pain). So I have a little while to work out what I can do with it.

I will spin off a new thread when I get chance to look in anger.

Thanks.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby fordp » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:56 am

I would suggest developing on a 32 bit Copro (32016, ARM Evaluation System or Native ARM) and then porting back to 6502.

You will be able to generate megabytes of BBC Basic before you hit the buffers then. You can run 6502 assembler in the Host if needed which could be interesting.
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Elminster
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby Elminster » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:59 am

I am only expecting to get to a couple 100k at most. I would have to go a bit crazy and write the entire suite of TCP/IP tools in BASIC to use 16MB (I seem to remember it being) on the other co pros.

But I will bear it in mind, I had thought about ARM but mainly as I have a sprow ARM7 board kicking about as well, I decided not to becuase of the 6502 ASM but then read only the other day about GOIO so maybe I could use ARM (either board or pitube version). I had also got the thought I of on the 'enhanced' > 44k version switching to BASIC V (mainly for the improved IF statement as much as anything.)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby vanekp » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:33 pm

mmmm when I 1st switch the BBC on I get this
AcornTube.jpg

If I then press break or ctrl break I get the normal BBC banner but no tube.
1st I though o I don't have a DNFS chip which it needs the tube code to work with the 2nd processor as I use a mmc card so don't normally have DNFS in the BBC, but that was not the problem.

I am use it with a Pi3 and dl the code PiTubeDirect_Diamondback_rc1.zip from https://github.com/hoglet67/PiTubeDirect/releases which I unzipped onto a SD card formatted as FAT32.
The local archive on this link http://www.sundby.com/index.php/pitubedirect-2/ does not work.
tried *fx151,230,0 and 1 to see if that was the problem no joy.

Anyone have an idea what I am doing wrong?
Tnx,
Peter.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby hoglet » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:43 pm

vanekp wrote:Anyone have an idea what I am doing wrong?

Can you post a picture of your complete setup (with the beeb cover removed)? (a picture is worth a thousand words....)

Problems like this are sometimes the result of quite subtle incompatibilities with other hardware add-ons, or just too long a cable.

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby hoglet » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:50 pm

Do you have a Watford 32K shadow RAM board fitted?

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby vanekp » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:57 pm

The ribbon cable to the Pi adaptor is 28cm long, I also have the watford 32k ram board in the BBC (disabled the rom for it) and use a rom/ramboard for sideways ram and roms.
BBC_20171019.jpg

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby hoglet » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:59 pm

I think the problem is you 32K RAM board, even when disabled, seems to stop PiTubeDirect working reliably. Another user (KenLowe) discovered this a few months ago:
viewtopic.php?p=172451#p172451

I don't have access to one of these, so I've not had a chance to debug the issue.

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby vanekp » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:08 pm

Okay, well took it out and things look a lot better....
BBC2_20171019.jpg

But
1. there is no basic prompt.
2. when I press ctrl break it does not see the tube anymore.
tried *FX151,230,1 still no tube just:-
BBC Computer 32K
EXMON II
ACORN DFS
BASIC
>

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Postby hoglet » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:11 pm

Can you post a few pictures of your setup, including the insides of the Beeb?


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