P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

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jms2
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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:29 pm

hoglet wrote:On the ELK the address of the tube is different. So you need to do *FX 147 230 n


I actually figured this out myself on the way in to work this morning :D (except I didn't know what the alternative *FX number was).

Also, do update to the DiamondBack release. It fixes a serious bug in the GPU code, and also adds an Elk mode that patches the Z80 tube client ROM for operation on the Elk. This allows CP/M to work properly. You need to set elk_mode=1 in params.txt


Wouldn't that make the Pi (Z80 mode) incompatible with a BBC though?

Which MMFS version and ROM file are you using? I'll try and replicate.


My ROM image is almost the same as yours - ESWMMFS version 1.40 at &4000 and ADFS 1.00 at &C000. The only difference is that I'm using Acorn ADFS v.100 instead of your rebuilt and bugfixed version - because you weren't sure the floppy routines were working in your version. Jumper configuration is the same, Mode 2, and I'm using SK3.

*MMFS
*. (or any command) just gives the error:

Card?

I haven't checked where PAGE ends up, well actually with the Pi plugged in it is always at &800 anyway of course.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby hoglet » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:47 pm

jms2 wrote:Wouldn't that make the Pi (Z80 mode) incompatible with a BBC though?

It does, which is why it's a user settable parameter in cmdline.txt (not params.txt as I mistakenly said earlier).

The problem is the Z80 client ROM actually contains some 6502 that's uploaded to the host and this accesses the Tube directly, so this can't be correct for both the Beeb and the Elk.

I did consider whether PiTubeDirect could somehow tell whether it was on a Beeb or an Elk, and make the change dynamically. But I couldn't think of an easy way.
jms2 wrote:*MMFS
*. (or any command) just gives the error:

Card?

Are you 100% sure you were using U/ESWMMFS.rom and not E/ESWMMFS.rom?

The "E" versions are for the Plus One printer port.

Failing that, this does sound like a genuine hardware problem, most likely with the SD card interface wiring. But possibly with the AP5's 6522.

Might be worth trying the debug version: U/EMMFS.rom (in AP5 Mode 0) and post a screen shot of the output.

Dave

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:26 pm

hoglet wrote:Are you 100% sure you were using U/ESWMMFS.rom and not E/ESWMMFS.rom?


Ah... no, I'm not sure. Furthermore, I reckon there's a good chance I have downloaded the E version, thinking that "E" stood for Electron. The configuration control for these roms is quite a challenge isn't it!

I'll re-burn the ROM with U/ESWMMFS, and at the same time perhaps I should include your bugfixed ADFS as well. Have you not tried it with floppies? I can give that a go and report back.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby hoglet » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:35 pm

jms2 wrote:Ah... no, I'm not sure. Furthermore, I reckon there's a good chance I have downloaded the E version, thinking that "E" stood for Electron. The configuration control for these roms is quite a challenge isn't it!

Indeed it is, and it's mostly my fault for using single letter directory names.

In the next release I will change this to:
- E -> ElkPrinterPort
- M -> MemoryMappedSPI
- U -> UserPortNonTurbo
- T -> UserPortTurbo

It is well documented, but most people seem to miss the documentation:
https://github.com/hoglet67/MMFS/wiki/Release-structure
jms2 wrote:Have you not tried it with floppies? I can give that a go and report back.

No I haven't, because I don't have any kind of Elk floppy interface.

ELK100 and ELK103 both contain the floppy code from the original Elk "ADFS 1.00", just retro-fitted into the "ADFS 1.30" code base.

There's a good chance it won't work, but it would be nice to know one way or the other.

Dave H did a quick test a while back of ELK103, which appeared to indicate a issue with the floppy code:
viewtopic.php?p=177032#p177032

We never got any further with testing ELK100.

Dave

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:39 pm

OK, I'll have a go at testing it with my Pegasus board. Might struggle a bit with the Plus 3 as that is equipped with the mighty ADFS 3.31 and I'm not sure there is a *UNPLUG on there.

Just looked at my AP5 rom before erasing it, and yes I see "EPP" in the title of the MMFS rom. I had wondered what that meant! #-o

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jgharston » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:25 pm

hoglet wrote:I can have a stab at answering these questions...
jms2 wrote:- ADFS 1.00, which has SCSI code but has page at &1D00 (and which has hardly any commands)
- ADFS 1.35, which is E00, patched by AlanD to include IDE code (but not SCSI), and which seems to have about the top 3.5k blank (not 4k)
- ADFS 3.31, also E00, but needs 32k SRAM to run from and has no HD code.
Presumably I'm restricted to the first of these for BeebSCSI, so is the 4k RAM overlay feature only provided to facilitate the writing of future ADFS versions?

Yes, this is to allow a future version of ADFS to be written.
I'm not 100% sure what Alan D's 1.35 was created from. So it's possible there was a SCSI version of this. I'll do some digging....

The last digit indicates what hard drive interface the Acorn ADFS uses:

Code: Select all

; Version number x.yz
;                1.0z = Electron
;                1.3z = BBC B/B+
;                1.5z = Master
;             z=%abcd
;                |||+---preserve context on break and various bugfixes
;                |00----SCSI drivers
;                |01----IDE drivers
;                |10----reserved
;                |11----User port MMC drivers
;                +------reserved

ADFS 2.xx are ADFSs for the Master that swap out the hard drive code in favour of *FORMAT and *VERIFY, and/or use the floppy code with DFS for floppy access.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:44 pm

I've rewritten the EPROM and switched to the Diamondback release of PiTube, and now everything seems to be working! =D>

This includes your floppy drivers in ADFS 1.00. I can certainly read disc catalogues and load files.

Thanks for your help Dave, I would never have figured out that I had the wrong version of MMFS!

jgharston wrote:The last digit indicates what hard drive interface the Acorn ADFS uses:

Code: Select all

; Version number x.yz
;                1.0z = Electron
;                1.3z = BBC B/B+
;                1.5z = Master
;             z=%abcd
;                |||+---preserve context on break and various bugfixes
;                |00----SCSI drivers
;                |01----IDE drivers
;                |10----reserved
;                |11----User port MMC drivers
;                +------reserved

ADFS 2.xx are ADFSs for the Master that swap out the hard drive code in favour of *FORMAT and *VERIFY, and/or use the floppy code with DFS for floppy access.


Thanks jgh, that's useful. Is that numbering system something that Acorn published, or something that's been developed subsequently to fit the known numbers? It does seem a bit restricted, eg 1.1, 1.2 etc are not used, and there isn't a way of showing that something is a newer version. Still, I can see that with so many adfs variants this kind of numbering is essential.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby hoglet » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:41 am

jms2 wrote:I've rewritten the EPROM and switched to the Diamondback release of PiTube, and now everything seems to be working! =D>

This includes your floppy drivers in ADFS 1.00. I can certainly read disc catalogues and load files.

Interesting, and slightly surprising.

Can you just confirm for ADFS you were using ELK100.rom, and not ADFS100.rom (the original ADFS 1.00).

Edit: Actually, it must be ELK100.rom as the release pacakge doesn't contain ADFS100.rom)

Dave

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:06 am

I'm fairly certain that's what I did - I even renamed the elk100 file on the PC to emphasise that it was your version. I take it there's no way to tell the difference in use (*help differences?)

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby hoglet » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:11 am

jms2 wrote:I'm fairly certain that's what I did - I even renamed the elk100 file on the PC to emphasise that it was your version. I take it there's no way to tell the difference in use (*help differences?)

No, I think HELP would just show "Advanced DFS 1.00"

You could always *SAVE it back out again and compare it.

Dave

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:47 pm

I extracted the top 16k out of the file I burned to the AP5 rom, and compared it to ELK100 using the file compare in HxD. They're identical. Then, just for completeness, I compared the file to Acorn's ADFS 1.00. They're different, the first difference being in the rom header:

Acorn ADFS 1.00: 00 00 00 4C A6 9A
ELK100: 00 00 00 4C A3 9A

So I'm as confident as I can be that I'm using ELK100, and the floppy drivers do work. :D What's more, with the PiTube switched on, the size of the ADFS workspace is irrelevant - I'm wondering whether this might have been part of Acorn's thinking when they designed it actually.

One slight caveat is that I've been having problems with the old DD floppies I've been using with the Electron, and I seem to get quite a lot of corruption on them. This happened with ADFS 3.31 but (understandably) hasn't gone away. So whilst I can read some files, it's not totally reliable. However I do think this is a disk issue not something to do with the software.

Started copying stuff from floppy onto SCSI today - never done that with an 8 bit machine before, its quite a novelty.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby daveejhitchins » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:06 pm

@jms . . . I've been using the Plus 3 ADFS with BeebSCSImini, one of my AP3/4 interfaces and various drives - doing what it looks like your planning, archiving both 3.5 and 5.25 discs to hard drive. Not seen any issues. But we do need an E00 version [-o< of Electron ADFS.

I tried the ACP ADFS that was shipped with the AP4 (still has page at 1D00) - but it doesn't work with BeebSCSImini :( Rob must have removed the Hard Drive code to add some utilities and fix the Floppy Write Bug.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:36 pm

The best solution, I think, would be to reinstate the SCSI drivers in ADFS 3.31.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby daveejhitchins » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:44 am

jms2 wrote:The best solution, I think, would be to reinstate the SCSI drivers in ADFS 3.31.
Of course, I'm pushing for a 1D00 version that includes all the bells and whistles e.g. utilities etc. This requires more than 16K e.g. bank switched - Exactly what the AP5 supports. The New AP3/4 will also support this bank switching. It may even be worth it to build a version that has a different switching method (similar to CC's Interword etc.) that could be plugged into the Acorn Plus 3 and the current AP3/4.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:26 pm

aerworuld wrote:I have tested the Beeb compatible user port with my AMX mouse and the hacked version of AMX Art that the genius that is Mr Barr did for me a few years back and that works fine too.


I've now got to this point as well, and have copied the contents of the Elk AMX Art disc onto the BeebSCSI HD along with the rom which I believe Stuart is referring to above. This came from here, and reports "AMX Mouse for Elk" in response to *ROMS.

However, something is still not right. The disc software runs, and so does the ROM, to the extent that I can get a pointer to appear on the screen. However, moving the mouse doesn't make the pointer move. It must be generating some interrupts though, because any movement of the mouse causes the machine to freeze, necessitating a press of break to get things going again.

EDIT: Oh hang on, this is exactly the same problem that I found back in this thread, when I was using the EUP board instead of the AP5. I've fallen into the same trap of using the "AMX Art for Elk" rom rather than the V2.1 version which was later shown to be better; but the real problem appeared to be an "evil Plus 1" symptom, for which there is no known cure...

I'll try the correct rom image first, but what really solved the problem last time was putting the ROM into an ABR board rather than EUP. I have absolutely no idea why this helped, except perhaps shorter traces affecting a marginal timing situation perhaps? This time I'm using sideways ram in the AP6, but several other options exist, which I'll explore.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:20 pm

Now fixed - I installed the "V2.1" rom which is exactly the same as the Beeb one except patched for Elk addresses. The mouse now works fine, as do the demos :D

AMX Art doesn't work as such, but I see that its load address is &1900, and therefore it doesn't co-exist nicely with ADFS. Easily fixable though, either by relocating it or by simply using DFS.

Along the way I encountered some bizarre problems, but I don't think these are anything to do with the AP5. They seem to relate to the interaction between my AP6 and what I am sure is an "evil" Plus 1 - I'll start another thread for this.

One other (unrelated) AP5 question - I tried ListLife on the 6502 second processor. However, it doesn't seem to be happy. Sometimes it hangs at the menu screen, but if it gets past this the Life display is always blank except for some flickering at the top left. Is it just that ListLife is not compatible with an Electron host?

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby hoglet » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:27 pm

jms2 wrote:One other (unrelated) AP5 question - I tried ListLife on the 6502 second processor. However, it doesn't seem to be happy. Sometimes it hangs at the menu screen, but if it gets past this the Life display is always blank except for some flickering at the top left. Is it just that ListLife is not compatible with an Electron host?

I can check this tomorrow.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby rharper » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:35 pm

jms2 wrote:Now fixed - I installed the "V2.1" rom which is exactly the same as the Beeb one except patched for Elk addresses. The mouse now works fine, as do the demos :D

From where have you obtained the "V2.1" rom?
Thanks,
Ray
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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby jms2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:19 pm

It isn't easy to find, so I've attached it here.

This is the BBC version, patched by Martin Barr to refer to the Elk user port addresses. BUT, he later showed that it is byte-for-byte identical with the official version released by PRES. Some functions don't work, but this was the case BITD.
Attachments
amx_mouse_support_V210_elk.zip
(4.75 KiB) Downloaded 19 times

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby rmbrowngr » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:31 pm

Where can I get my hands on an AP5?

Thanks Richard B.
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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby emeu1 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:27 pm

I have the same question.
Also interested in an AP5 (and also a floppy interface that would fit in one of the cartridge slots of a Plus 1).

Best regards,

Erik

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby daveejhitchins » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:53 am

emeu1 wrote:I have the same question.
Also interested in an AP5 (and also a floppy interface that would fit in one of the cartridge slots of a Plus 1).

Best regards,

Erik

pm sent . . .

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby daveejhitchins » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:28 pm

Here at last . . . AP5 with case:
Kit.jpg
Case kit

Stage 1.jpg
Build stage #1

Stage 2.jpg
Build stage #2

Stage 3.jpg
Build stage #3

Stage 4.jpg
Build stage #4 and back view

Front.jpg
Front view

Elk View Front.jpg
Fitted into Plus 1 - Electron front view

Elk View Back.jpg
Fitted into Plus 1 - Electron back view


Sorry about the 'colours' of the images and focus - rushed it :roll:

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby dixiestoat » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:35 pm

Helloooo baby ! \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
If in doubt, CTRL-BREAK thou should clout..

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby danielj » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:53 pm

Oooh Dave - you are rather good :D

d.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby rmbrowngr » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:05 pm

They do look good. Can’t wait to get my hands on one.

Richard B
Richard B


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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby daveejhitchins » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:35 pm

Elminster wrote:I want mine in rainbow strips.


Emoji.png
Emoji.png (58.88 KiB) Viewed 387 times


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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:39 pm

Excellent job Dave :D =D>

I see you have me down as 1 x built AP5. If it easier for you, I'm perfectly happy to have a kit with case instead. Indeed, it's unusual for me to go for a built unit if there is a choice of kit available.

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Re: P.R.E.S. AP5 - Original and Re-Design

Postby 1024MAK » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:41 pm

Elminster wrote:I want mine in rainbow strips.

:D

Err, this is an Acorn forum, not a Spectrum forum :shock: [-X [-( :lol:

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