Twin Kingdom Valley

discuss text & graphic adventures for Acorns. level 9, robico & epic led this field
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Lardo Boffin
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Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby Lardo Boffin » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:59 pm

Hi all

I am the proud owner of the cassette version of TKV but lack the patience or time to load / save to cassette. I also have a version of TKV on my turbo MMC system which loads and runs fine but I cannot save progress on it.

Is there a disc based version of this excellent game anywhere? I would like to play it again on my Beeb (rather than an emulator) but really don't have time to wait 10 mins for it to load...

Any help appreciated!

Phil

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davidb
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby davidb » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:03 pm

There's a disk image at the Stairway To Hell, if that helps.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby Lardo Boffin » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:10 pm

davidb wrote:There's a disk image at the Stairway To Hell, if that helps.



Thanks for that - that saves and loads in an emulator so I will try later on when I get home.

Phil
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, matchbox co-proc, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc, Acorn 6502 coproc

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby Lardo Boffin » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:20 pm

Well I copied the disk image ok from the net to a floppy via my MMC card and it runs ok but when I type *SAVE it just hangs. I wonder if BeebEm cleverly intercepts reads and writes from cassette and reroutes them via its own file system?
I tried *SAVE followed by a file name and removing my MMC Rom in case that conflicted but no joy!

Anyone got TKV running on disc / MMC?
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, matchbox co-proc, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc, Acorn 6502 coproc

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jgharston
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby jgharston » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:26 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:Well I copied the disk image ok from the net to a floppy via my MMC card and it runs ok but when I type *SAVE it just hangs.
Probably because SAVE (or even *SAVE) isn't a command that TKV recognises. HELP lists all the commands it recognises, and SAVE isn't one of them. It's probably a faulty parser that causes it to crash if you attempt to give it an unrecognised command.

Edit: it seems that if you've given at least one recognised command, then all unrecognised commands correctly give a "I don't understand" message. It's just if the very first command you enter is an unrecognised command it falls over.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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danielj
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby danielj » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:45 pm

*SAVE is, if I recall from the inlay, a special command not listed by the parser. The save file was in 2 or 3 parts and ridiculously huge though...

The disc version knocking around is a transfer of the tape version. Emulated tape version definitely accepts *SAVE as it immediately prints "RECORD then RETURN". The version on SSD just ignores it - doesn't even say it doesn't understand. I'm guessing the save routine was either goosed in the transfer or is implemented in such a way that it doesn't get on with DFS...

d.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby Lardo Boffin » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:41 pm

Looks that way - the save command is definitely *SAVE - I am sad enough to remember back 30 years ago when I played it first (and I have an original cassette with the inlay listing the commands). I'm pretty sure that I got the full 1000 or so
points (spoiler alert) and then looked into the secret of life. And then went 'is that it? Have i completed it?'

Is anyone a good enough programmer to rise to the challenge of making it save to disc? I am ok but no where near that standard!

Phil
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, matchbox co-proc, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc, Acorn 6502 coproc

duikkie
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby duikkie » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:27 pm

upload the tape version with save command , maybe it can be transfered to disc with the command in place ? the big problem is the eoo..&1300 area. maybe a swap file needed. because you need e00..1300 for file transfer by disc.

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jgharston
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby jgharston » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:17 pm

duikkie wrote:upload the tape version with save command , maybe it can be transfered to disc with the command in place ? the big problem is the eoo..&1300 area. maybe a swap file needed. because you need e00..1300 for file transfer by disc.
That's only a problem if the data is saved with OPENOUT. SAVE to DFS just needs &E00-&FFF for the catalog and &1000-&10FF for workspace. TKV loads to &1100, so a DFS SAVE would esily work, as would a NFS SAVE with PAGE at &1200. NFS SAVE with both DFS and NFS available wouldn't work as the network blocks are in NFS's private workspace just underneath PAGE, so would be at, eg, &1700.

I'll do a quick disassemble of TKV and see what it's doing to save/restore the game state.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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jgharston
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby jgharston » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:41 pm

jgharston wrote:I'll do a quick disassemble of TKV and see what it's doing to save/restore the game state.
No, looks like it's not possible without large amounts of re-writing. On startup it copies loads of code into low memory, including to &E00-&10FF, so any attempt to use any filing system that uses &E00+ workspace is going to fall over.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

duikkie
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby duikkie » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:33 pm

there must be a swap file , but without the tape version , i can't do anything ( not even looking at it ) , i only have the disk version without even the save command.

so no OPENOUT, that is good :) still a lot to move around :(

jgharston wrote:
jgharston wrote:I'll do a quick disassemble of TKV and see what it's doing to save/restore the game state.
No, looks like it's not possible without large amounts of re-writing. On startup it copies loads of code into low memory, including to &E00-&10FF, so any attempt to use any filing system that uses &E00+ workspace is going to fall over.

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danielj
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby danielj » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:11 pm


duikkie
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby duikkie » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:43 pm

no cassette or tapedeck , is it possible to load it in beeb and make a ssd file ?



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Dethmunk
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby Dethmunk » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:26 pm

In the emulators like BeebEm... it does have a Save State function in the emulator itself. Can't you just use that to save your progress?
Image

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tricky
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby tricky » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:45 pm

With it being a gfx adventure, it might be fairly easy to copy the low code/days to screen memory, save and copy back. Not volunteering :(

joachim
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby joachim » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:07 am

Probably not directly related to what you're trying to do here, but for reference, this Pendragon column talks about patching bad save code in the Electron version of TKV: http://www.acornelectron.co.uk/mags/eu/ ... pen20.html

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DutchAcorn
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby DutchAcorn » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:14 pm

danielj wrote:... The version on SSD just ignores it - doesn't even say it doesn't understand. I'm guessing the save routine was either goosed in the transfer or is implemented in such a way that it doesn't get on with DFS...

d.

That's what it does in BeebEm. On a real BBC it hangs after a *SAVE command. Other * commands are ignored.

I tried a different version from BITD ("cracked by Frank van Maurik"). It also crashes on *save. I guess I never tried to save a game BITD #-o
Paul

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby Lardo Boffin » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:10 pm

DutchAcorn wrote:
danielj wrote:... The version on SSD just ignores it - doesn't even say it doesn't understand. I'm guessing the save routine was either goosed in the transfer or is implemented in such a way that it doesn't get on with DFS...

d.

That's what it does in BeebEm. On a real BBC it hangs after a *SAVE command. Other * commands are ignored.

I tried a different version from BITD ("cracked by Frank van Maurik"). It also crashes on *save. I guess I never tried to save a game BITD #-o



Blimey. I didn't think this would be resurrected after a year!

The original aim was to get it saving on the Beeb using DFS or MMC etc rather than just hanging when not using the tape FS. The original tape version loads and saves fine on my Beeb but when transferrred to a disc it no longer saves.

I could play it on an emulator and save state but it just isn't the same!

I also have a spectrum 128k toast rack (is there still rivalry between Acorn and Sinclair owners?) and an original copy on cassette for this. Attached to this I have a DIVMMC (the speccy equivalent of the MMC card reader systems) which has a wonderful button which saves the entire contents of its RAM to a snapshot file which it can then reload. This way I can save my progress on an original 8bit machine without waiting for ages...
Which is great but I would still rather play it on the Beeb - it is hard to get used to the attribute clash of the speccy.

Lardo
Last edited by Lardo Boffin on Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, matchbox co-proc, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc, Acorn 6502 coproc

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: Twin Kingdom Valley

Postby Lardo Boffin » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:17 pm

One other thought - I now have a Retroclinic Datacentre and this leaves Page at &E00.
Given that this would no longer cause a clash due to not competing for memory space would it be possible to get a version saving using this?

Lardo
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, matchbox co-proc, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc, Acorn 6502 coproc


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