ICE T65/Z80/6809

discussion of games, software, hardware & emulators relating to the Acorn Atom
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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby Elminster » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:48 am

Yep, built fine.

This time I programmed with 'W25Q32BV' (as htat is what it says on ebay blurb) instead of 'vW25Q32V. Seems to have worked. Choosing either seems to work, not sure what the difference is.

Code: Select all

ICE-T65 In-Circuit Emulator version 0.73
Compiled at 11:30:47 on Aug  1 2017
8 watches/breakpoints implemented
Tracing every 1 instructions while single stepping
CPU free running...

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:58 am

Elminster wrote:Yep, built fine.

I'm still waiting for my LX9 board from China, so I haven't actually been able to test anything properly yet.

I've also sort of lost track of who has what hardware - what's the status of your level shifter board?

Dave

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby Elminster » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:01 am

I have a fully working ISE build on ubuntu 32bit Notebook, and ubuntu 64bit VM

A Xilinx knock off DLC9G. And a LX9 board,which should be the same as the one you have.

I have no way to connect it to a 6502 socket currently. Although I guess I could perhaps fudge it using a level shifter and jumper wires!

For my build of ISE I think 99% of this is on your (Hoglet's) git rep but some not always obvious till you hit issue, and other bits spread through the thread. So here are my notes on the second ubuntu ISE/USB/Compile/Program build I did. Might be of use to people if doing end to end.

Feel free to use/copy etc. as required.
Attachments
Install_ISE_on_ubuntu.pdf
(199.47 KiB) Downloaded 8 times

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:04 pm

I've just been checking the schematic of the LX9 Board and spotted a possible gotcha in the way the board is powered:
lx9_mini_board_power.PNG

There doesn't seem to be a way to isolate the +5V USB power supply, i.e. it's always driving the LX9 FPGA board. On other boards I have used there's normally a jumper as well that allows it to be disconnected completely.

A consequence of this is that It's important to avoid creating a path through which current can flow from the USB port +5V into the Beeb (or what ever machine the ICE is in).

On Jason's level shifter board it looks like the +5V plane can be strapped in one of two ways:
(1) - to one of the DIP pins (e.g. Pin 8 on the 6502)
(2) - to Vin on the 2x20 connectors (which is Vin on the above schematic)

Don't to both! If you do, there's a path for current to flow from the USB into the Beeb, especially when the Beeb is powered off.

I would strongly recommend (1) which means:
- the +5V pullups on the level shifters are use +5V from the Beeb
- the LX9 FPGA board is powered from the +5V on the USB

Jason / Mark, do you you agree with this?

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sirmorris
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby sirmorris » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:26 pm

My level shifter is 99% complete - I just need to add the power jumpers for Z80. I have another on its way from Jason which I will configure for 6502. I await information regarding the above..!

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:33 pm

sirmorris wrote:My level shifter is 99% complete - I just need to add the power jumpers for Z80. I have another on its way from Jason which I will configure for 6502. I await information regarding the above..!

What Z80 machine are you planning to try it in? Hope it's not a Spectrum 48K....

My experiences are documented here.

Dave

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby Elminster » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:16 pm

From my side. I dont plan to do anything further until you chaps suss it all out and hopefully come up with a design, or even better take orders for batch of PCBs I can glue together.

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sirmorris
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby sirmorris » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:40 pm

My Z80 adventure will start with my non-functioning Minstrel - a ZX80 based design.

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:00 pm

sirmorris wrote:My Z80 adventure will start with my non-functioning Minstrel - a ZX80 based design.

I think you are going to have problems with that...
zx80.PNG

Looks like the data bus is split with 1K resistors (to save the cost of a buffer chip).

That's not going to play nicely with the 1.5K pullups on Jason's level shifter board. :(

Dave

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sirmorris
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby sirmorris » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:33 pm

Yeah, I imagined as much. Though I'm using 10k if that makes a difference.

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:00 pm

sirmorris wrote:Yeah, I imagined as much. Though I'm using 10k if that makes a difference.

Ah, you are one step ahead of me! That might well work.

Dave

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby 1024MAK » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:56 pm

hoglet wrote:I've just been checking the schematic of the LX9 Board and spotted a possible gotcha in the way the board is powered:
Image
There doesn't seem to be a way to isolate the +5V USB power supply, i.e. it's always driving the LX9 FPGA board. On other boards I have used there's normally a jumper as well that allows it to be disconnected completely.

A consequence of this is that It's important to avoid creating a path through which current can flow from the USB port +5V into the Beeb (or what ever machine the ICE is in).

On Jason's level shifter board it looks like the +5V plane can be strapped in one of two ways:
(1) - to one of the DIP pins (e.g. Pin 8 on the 6502)
(2) - to Vin on the 2x20 connectors (which is Vin on the above schematic)

Don't to both! If you do, there's a path for current to flow from the USB into the Beeb, especially when the Beeb is powered off.

I would strongly recommend (1) which means:
- the +5V pullups on the level shifters are use +5V from the Beeb
- the LX9 FPGA board is powered from the +5V on the USB

Jason / Mark, do you you agree with this?

Dave

If both jumpers were fitted by mistake, while the Beeb was powered on, as long at it's PSU produced the same or a greater voltage than the USB input voltage, there would be no problem. BUT as soon as you switch off the Beeb, then things would not be so good :(
The circuitry of the Beeb would try to draw power via the path from the USB input via diode D2. As the Beeb is fairly power hungry, it could draw more current than is heathy via this route (doubtful if the tracks and diode are rated for this current) even if the USB supply could supply it (which it probably could not). Also the resistance of the USB cable, tracks, connectors would cause a voltage drop, which combined with the forward voltage of the diode, and the dip in the USB 5V supply voltage, is likely to result in the Beeb malfunctioning.

If the LX9 board is going to be powered by the USB, I agree, it's best if the Beeb (6502) 5V supply is used to power the level shifters.

Mark
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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby 1024MAK » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:04 pm

hoglet wrote:
sirmorris wrote:My Z80 adventure will start with my non-functioning Minstrel - a ZX80 based design.

I think you are going to have problems with that...
Image
Looks like the data bus is split with 1K resistors (to save the cost of a buffer chip).

That's not going to play nicely with the 1.5K pullups on Jason's level shifter board. :(

Dave

The resistor "isolation" trick is used on the Sinclair ZX80, ZX81 and on most recreations of these ("clones") for some of the address lines and all the data lines. The Sinclair ZX Spectrum also uses the same trick for the data lines except for the +2A, +2B, +3 and the +3B Amstrad produced machines.

Mark
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flynnjs
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby flynnjs » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 pm

hoglet wrote:Jason / Mark, do you you agree with this?
Dave


Yes, the idea is to jumper the power from the DIP to the pull-ups.
The extra jumpers allow a switch to be connected to allow the FPGA to run when not USB powered, obviously no use for ICE work but there are other stand alone applications. You are right, it's not designed for both.
3v3 (or whatever VCCIO the FPGA uses) is always fed from the FPGA board to the low side of the level shifters.

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martinw
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby martinw » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:45 am

Quick question :)

If I make an interface PCB from the Hirose FX2 connector to the 40 pin DIP, with some level translators on it.

Could I use this PCB, which I have, to make an ICE XXX?

Xilinx Spartan 3E PCB.jpg

Xilinx Spartan XC3S500E.jpg


http://store.digilentinc.com/spartan-3e ... ited-time/

Martin

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:14 am

martinw wrote:Could I use this PCB, which I have, to make an ICE XXX?

It has:
- a XC3S500E FPGA, which is the same device as the larger GODIL
- 40 I/Os on the Hirose FX2, which is enough
- a 50MHz oscillator
- a serial port

So I think the answer is yes.

But you would definitely want to keep the cable fairly short, at least initially. I would start with 15cm.

You would have to decide on the type of level shifter technology:
- bidirectional, with pullups, e.g. using 2x 74CB3T16211 or similar
- push-pull, e.g. using 5x 74LVC4245 or similar

There are pros and cons, but it boils down to.

Bidirectional:
- Pro: level shifter board design will support different processor families (6502, Z80 and 6809), with suitable power pin strapping
- Con: the pullups cause problems in some systems (e.g. Sinclair machines with split data bus)

Push Pull:
- Pro: should work anywhere the original processor works
- Con: level shifter board design will be specific to one processor family

Dave

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martinw
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby martinw » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:25 am

Sounds good Dave, I might give it a go :)

Martin

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby martinw » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:01 pm

Hi Dave,

I'm favouring the bidirectional with pull ups, buying a couple of SN74CB3T16211DGGR 56 pin TSSOP ICs from Mouser (as they also have the Hirose connectors I need).

Any idea on pull up values and how many, I'll probably buy in octal surface mount packs.

Cheers,

Martin

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flynnjs
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby flynnjs » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:54 pm

I think I used 1k5 which is what's in use on the GODIL.

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martinw
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby martinw » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:06 pm

Sounds good, do you have any idea how many I'll need?

Martin

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:10 pm

If you use SIL resistor packs, I would be tempted to mount them in sockets, so they can be unplugged if necessary.

The pullups are only necessary if the host contains CMOS devices with logic thresholds of 0.3xVCC and 0.7xVCC (which works out at 1.5V and 3.5V with VCC=5V). The bidirectional level shifter can only get to 3.3V on it's own.

Dave

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martinw
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby martinw » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:27 pm

Excellent, understood :)

Martin

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:32 pm

1024MAK wrote:I've ordered an Xilinx FPGA Spartan 6 XC6SLX9 Core Board from eepizza as well.

The estimated delivery date range that I have is Thu, 03 Aug - Wed, 30 Aug.

Any sign of your board yet?

I'm still waiting for mine :(

Dave

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby Elminster » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:32 pm

Odd, we ordered on same day from same person, and I've had mine a week. The joys off eBaying things from China I guess.

My cousin just flew back from China a week ago, I should have got him to pickup all you boards.

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby 1024MAK » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:39 pm

hoglet wrote:
1024MAK wrote:I've ordered an Xilinx FPGA Spartan 6 XC6SLX9 Core Board from eepizza as well.

The estimated delivery date range that I have is Thu, 03 Aug - Wed, 30 Aug.

Any sign of your board yet?

I'm still waiting for mine :(

Dave

Not so far...

Mark
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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby 1024MAK » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:01 pm

Just received today...

Image
Xilinx Spartan 6 XC6SLX9 Mini Board in packaging

Image
Xilinx Spartan 6 XC6SLX9 Mini Board top view

Image
Xilinx Spartan 6 XC6SLX9 Mini Board bottom view

8) :D

Mark
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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:26 pm

1024MAK wrote:Just received today...

Me too! :D

I'll be testing it this afternoon.

Dave

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sirmorris
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby sirmorris » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:21 pm

Woohoo! I haven't had a minute to try mine :(

I'm still a little confused about where the power jumpers need to go. The shifters will have their high side powered by the device under test as I understand it. The ice will be powered by usb. What does this mean for jumpers on the adapter board?

Mention has been made of a schematic for the adapter - does anyone have this handy?

*edit the central island should *not* have the 0R resistors fitted which connect the central island to the fpga board connectors. Instead the central island should be jumpered to whichever pin has 5v 'pon it at the processor connector. Amirite?
Last edited by sirmorris on Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby Elminster » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:25 pm

I am expecting great things.

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Postby hoglet » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:32 pm

Elminster wrote:I am expecting great things.

Well, I can already tell you it didn't work first time!

It looks like the UCF pin assignment is possibly incorrect, as the seems to be coming out on the wrong pin!

A bit of head scratching is now going on.....

Dave


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