Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

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sbadger
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by sbadger »

I'm following this thread with interest :D
I watched your YT vid gfoot , entertaining thanks, I look forward to more.
I'm not all that familiar with Speed run etiquette, but I guess using the Pray at Noon as a Reactor places these speed runs firmly in the abusing game glitches for speed?.
So many projects, so little time...
bob147
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

I'm more familiar with the tool assisted variety, but I'd imagine the rules are the same. The standard category is "any %", ie get to the end credits by any means necessary. The only rules are starting from scratch (ie no getting the game into a favourable state by playing it in advance), no cheat codes, no modifications. Anything you can do in game to speed things up is fair game.

"Glitchless" tends to be a separate category and quite ambiguous as to what is and isn't a glitch.

There's also 100%, ie full completion including optional side quests etc. Castle Quest for example, you can finish with treasure in your inventory but you don't have to.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

I played through my route this morning, using rewinds etc, and it worked pretty well. I deviated a bit, trying to make effective use of the damage respawn mechanic after getting the worm.

I didn't bother getting the password for the armoury, and this was fine, I wasn't short of bombs overall - three for the reactors, and I think I used two more on the ghosts, the last of which was probably not necessary. I also managed to combine the "pray" reactor bombing with exorcising the ghosts at the same time.

Surprisingly I was also never short of energy - so although I did deliberately just walk through some enemies, sacrificing energy for time, I could have done this a lot more often.

I've uploaded an unlisted video to YouTube here: https://youtu.be/Qy7mbjJiAS4

And the capture file is attached, for use with the STH Quest.ssd.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

Well done mate, 30 minutes is a great time for this game! I look forward to watching it.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

bob147 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:07 pm
Well done mate, 30 minutes is a great time for this game! I look forward to watching it.
Thanks! I just had another go though, and knocked another five minutes off - it's 26:10 now!

The main change is being more bold about walking through enemies, and not hesitating as much as I knew the route already. Also I made a better choice with which item to leave at the bottle hole, that meant I had the card when I needed it, going into the water area, and didn't have to swap the items around as much later on as well. I also experimented with some faster ways through some levels later in the run, that ought to be applied nearer the start as well.

Energy was still not a problem, but the ghosts were more awkward and I used a lot more bombs.

The capture attached, for beebjit 0.9.8 and the STH Quest.ssd image - and the YouTube recording will be here soon (currently processing): https://youtu.be/1aUpFlAUrrM
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by scarybeasts »

gfoot wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:19 pm
Thanks! I just had another go though, and knocked another five minutes off - it's 26:10 now!
Amazing!
I added this capture to a collection I'm keeping here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... liPcq8Rbrn


Cheers
Chris
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

Having now watched it, this is basically the run I'd hoped could be made. It's definitely faster thanthe normal route. I love the nonchalant way you smash through the non homing enemies.

The only question is the very last bit, will it turn out to be faster to leave the cheese by the extra key by the door at the start so you can open the other route to the ghost maze and do the two reactors from the other side. You're so quick I'm not convinced that it will, but it's close.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

Yes, it would be interesting. Also potentially going up the left hand side - though it's then hard to reach Terminal 3.

Incidentally I calculated that waiting for noon in a time warp would add about six minutes, so we definitely save a lot of time by avoiding that.

Another thought is whether we could come back across the Terminal 7 screen after collecting the crystal there, as you suggested before. I didn't do it, because it felt quicker to get to the bottom through the right hand route anyway - but it's possible that we should swap the order and go down the bottle hole before doing Terminal 7 - so go down, swap keys etc, then go back up using the fish, do Terminal 7, and go straight to Terminal 3 from there. It feels quicker in my mind. Then the joke shop crystal would have to wait until nearer the end of the game.

Edit: Wow, I cut into the previous capture at the right point, just after the water, and did this, and it saved about a minute and a half more - I haven't videoed it so don't have exact times, but judging by the replay data it's about 24:46! I was also much more aggressive with getting through some of the screens, and especially taking fall damage - the habits of descending carefully to avoid damage are hard to shake off - so those may have helped too.

It's probably possible to go below 24 minutes, with better execution throughout.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

bob147 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:24 pm
The only question is the very last bit, will it turn out to be faster to leave the cheese by the extra key by the door at the start so you can open the other route to the ghost maze and do the two reactors from the other side. You're so quick I'm not convinced that it will, but it's close.
On this point, it might be worth getting a capture of getting the cheese and round key at the start, leaving the cheese somewhere sensible like the entrance to the room with the worms and elevators, and comparing that against the time taken in my video for getting just the round key; then time a route from the A0 square door to the square key, picking up the cheese on the way, getting the square key, and heading down to Terminal 2. Then maybe it's possible to compare the time saving against the time cost.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

How do you backtrack after the terminal 7 crystal? I didn't think it was possible to get back on the right hand tower after going past it. Or do you mean something else?
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

bob147 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:26 am
How do you backtrack after the terminal 7 crystal? I didn't think it was possible to get back on the right hand tower after going past it. Or do you mean something else?
Ah sorry I got mixed up and thought this was your suggestion originally - but we can use the damage teleport to get back up there.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

Oh i get it now, I thoughg because you change screens to get the crystal you can't do it, but the tower is close enough to the edge of the screen that you can fall back onto it, clever!

My suggestion was terminal 3 back to crystal. It actually doesn't work, but using a terminal counts as a checkpoint so you cant snap back
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

bob147 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:04 am
Oh i get it now, I thoughg because you change screens to get the crystal you can't do it, but the tower is close enough to the edge of the screen that you can fall back onto it, clever!

My suggestion was terminal 3 back to crystal. It actually doesn't work, but using a terminal counts as a checkpoint so you cant snap back
I jumped off the right hand Terminal 7 so that I could be as high as possible at the screen change.

I guess there are a few more places this can help - I already did it by accident collecting the card, there's the joke shop crystal, maybe the oracle crystal if the ghosts are present, and the round key. I think you were also using this trick in the room with the vats, to get onto the moving platform quicker?

And if there was a way to trigger it voluntarily you could even get the square key this way. I doubt it though!
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

Another thing that's added further doubt to my alternate route suggestion is that you're right, you have to destroy the pray reactor first, which means if you're coming down the left hand side, you have to go past the proper reactor, go all the way down and blow up the fake one, then back up again to blow up the proper one. Can't do it on the way like I assumed you could when I was route plotting.

One other random fact about this game, I was curious about the chapel door and what happens if you keep waiting after 1200. BeebJit's turbo mode lets me do this in seconds rather days. Turns out, every hour on the hour after 1200, the door re-opens! Another neat trick is to stand in the space where the door will shut, then at 1201 the door shuts on top of you. The games freaks out and warps you to the bottom of the cheese room. It's the kind of TAS trick where you wonder if you stand in exactly the right place, can you confuse the game further and warp to other rooms for a crazy finish time?
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

Haha wow. Does it also open at 11:00? I assume not but that could make this warping thing useful, maybe for a 100% speedrun?

I think your other shortcut from the music room area would also be useful in a 100% speedrun.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

It does indeed open at 11 as well, but alas, every other time I've tried getting stuck in the door, nothing has happened and I can just walk through the closed door. Must have been a fluke the first time.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

I wonder how much you could get done before going to the chapel at 11:00, for a quick 100% run. You'd need to get the cross of course, and take the eye to the oracle, getting password 3 on the way. Then find your way back up, possibly using up the square key to go up the left hand side? Or maybe save that key for getting the start screen crystal on the way (more or less) to the chapel.

I guess a 100% run would require by definition getting the cheese to the mouse as well, again maybe something that could be done on the way to the chapel.

Regarding the fish, you'd need that in order to get the cross. But after you get the cross the swimming fish seems to come back! At least it did for me in one of my early test runs. So if you get the fish you do need to follow through and do the water reactor as well.

Maybe more to the point, what do you not need to do before going to the chapel! Hmm. The mouse, the joke shop crystal, the terminal 7 crystal... technically terminal 3 etc.

Overall I feel it might be possible! but it would be tricky
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

So I guess in this case, 100% would mean all puzzles solved, all items used for their purpose (perhaps all terminals activated too?), you'd really have to get a move on to get to the church by 11 with the cross, I'd be impressed if it could be done, even with the sneaky music room shortcut.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

bob147 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:58 pm
So I guess in this case, 100% would mean all puzzles solved, all items used for their purpose (perhaps all terminals activated too?), you'd really have to get a move on to get to the church by 11 with the cross, I'd be impressed if it could be done, even with the sneaky music room shortcut.
Yes, I reviewed one of my videos and it seemed a bit hopeless. I gave it a go anyway, cutting absolutely everything I could think of - see attached.

I made a mistake, not collecting password 4, which meant I wasn't able to defuse the water reactor, but I carried on anyway and just headed for the cross. I got the cross during minute 10:58, then died in the joke shop time warp on the way back. I can't imagine how to get from there to the chapel in under a minute, especially having to go through two time warps on the way - nor can I really see much opportunity for significant improvement to the route or execution, I already pulled out pretty much all the stops here, with some new ways to get through some of the enemies even quicker than before.

The only big time loss I think was the drowning teleport underwater, but that's going to be more than offset by the fact that I didn't do the second music room and get password 4.

It's tantalizingly close though, and you know what they say, "Never say never"!
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

Hmm, there's that odd passage from cheese to joke shop, seemingly impossible to get through because its guarded by a homing bird and it's so narrow. Maybe we can find a way through to save the time?

EDIT - forget that, you can't get up to it even using 2 items as a stool, so that's a no go.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

OK I've timed myself getting the cheese as aggressively fast as possible (so sloppy I end up losing half my health!), a bit of hesitation on the first time warp and the damage teleport on the key screen is probably unnecessary, but the rough time is gonna be in the ballpark. Just need to time picking it back up, getting the extra key and doing the reactors in the ghost maze now.

EDIT - it occurs to me that given every screen resets each time you enter it, maybe I can splice this directly into @gfoot's latest 25 minute run and it'll still sync up (as long as I don't lose so much health, it means there isn't enough for later!). Will make it easier to test the bit at the end.

EDIT 2 - and thinking about it, the best place to drop the cheese to minimize backtracking is actually going to be that awful screen with the diagonal tunnel and those blasted homing robots bouncing around all over the place. Hopefully it works out and they don't get in the way too much.

EDIT 3 - replaced with a better cap file which does the whole start up to dumping the cheese and resuming Mr. Foot's route.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by bob147 »

I tested it out by basically using the current fastest run, then taking back control and putting the cheese in the place where I'd collect it. Of course what I forgot is that you do actually need the card on second visit to the ghost maze, to switch on the lifts to reactor 3, so I can't use it as a stool to escape with the extra key. Oops. :lol:

I hereby conclude that @gfoot's route back around via the music room shortcut is the fastest! Mainly because any other route forces you to get the final password which means waiting for 1200 at the chapel, or some across the map backtracking to dump another unused item in the right place (until someone thinks of something else :lol: )

If it is in fact possible to hit the chapel at 1100 with the cross, that opens the possibility of the 100% route actually being the fastest route anyway. But until then, I'm out of ideas for improvements besides looking for more little time savers by using the damage teleport.
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Re: Quest - random musings and hopefully a BeebJit run

Post by gfoot »

I've made a video of my fastest tool-assisted run so far (24:44 I think) with commentary explaining what's going on throughout: https://youtu.be/ogEpRLqstPk

I doubt I'll improve on this any time soon, but I noted in the commentary that there are certainly some big improvements to be had, especially by not gong to "chemical supplies" so soon.
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